The AIDEM Interactions: Philippe Humbert

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Hello and welcome to The AIDEM Interactions. The AIDEM Interactions is today with an international guest. A specialist on India and Indian affairs. All the way from Paris. Philippe Humbert of Jean Jaures foundation. Welcome Philippe to The AIDEM Interactions. We know that you have been interacting with India right from the 1980s. Perhaps you know more about India than many Indians know. And you also wrote this interesting book published in 1992: The Rajiv Gandhi Years. You have had a special focus on the Congress Party because that was the ruling party at that point of time. Of course now we have a lot of things happening. The situation in India has changed. You’re coming to India after four years. After the COVID Period. So when you compare the visits made in the past and compare with the situations in the 1980s and 1990s and the New Millenia, what are the main changes you’ve seen in India?

Philippe Humbert: From a political internal viewpoint I think that the situation where the Congress was a big party, things were different. Congress used to have a more diversified base.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Diversified base?

Philippe Humbert: A more diversified base and it was more like a coalition of parties or segments of the population. Now I think when the BJP took over in 2014, I think, it’s acting as a big machinery. It’s a big block. A very strong machinery. And I think with a strong local organisation and Central organisation, more than when the Congress was in power.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: In your book, you talk about how the Congress built a coalition of various segments of society. We call them Castes and Communities here. But the BJP is pursuing what is called the Hindutva Philosophy. But using this the Hindutva philosophy, it has made some major inroads in terms of unifying large sections of the Hindu society. How do you look at that phenomenon?

Philippe Humbert: Well I think this phenomenon is something new in India. Because it is a shift toward a society where there is a kind of monolithic view of Hinduism. It is to be noted that India is not a Hindu country, though a large majority of the population is Hindu. There is Hinduism, of course. But with a big segment of Muslim, Christian, Sikh or Jains. It’s diversified. So shifting policy towards a Hindu block is something which is a bit odd in my view. This phenomenon is related to some experience in some other countries where there is a block according to, I would not say religion or belief, just strongly based on cultural custom and habits.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: OK but, when you say that this is similar to other countries. Can you name some?

Philippe Humbert: Of course, in Israel, there is this tendency. The same way, Israel is being considered as a Jewish country, one hundred percent. Which is not true because there are Arab minorities, who are citizens.So it can’t be a Jewish State even if some people would like to call it that way. It’s this kind of movement that is happening in India. Only thing is, it’s much bigger. So that’s something new according to me.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Something new and perhaps something that is taking us towards a sectarian state. A state which is kind of pushing a sectarian agenda.

Philippe Humbert: Yes. I think that this view is in a way against secularism. Because secularism means that the State does not have any religious image. Secularism stands as a separation of the State, government and religion. It is what was done in France in 1905.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Of course, we all know that France is the place where the concept of Secularism originated. Interestingly, two judges of the Indian Supreme court said recently that religion and politics should not be mixed. So that is something that echoes with what you are saying. Would you like to comment on point like this ?

Philippe Humbert: Secularism in France is an essential ideal. Long ago, for years, for centuries the King was supposed to represent God in France. But that has changed. So much so, that the Catholic Church of France had been struggling to have a strong influence over the state and government in many areas. But the fact is that the 1905 law, (law on separation of religion and the State) what’s called Laicite in France is still there.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: There were also demands to reform the secularism idea of France, especially in the context of the Hijab controversy and related issues that came up in the 90s and early 2000s….

Philippe Humbert: Yes there are some views like that and it’s reality now but you know this law, the 1905 law, has not been changed. It has not been changed at all. Only thing is that its implementation in some areas, mainly in schools and in some public domain areas like Administration, can be in ways, a bit pragmatic, according to local circumstances. But the law has not been changed and I don’t think it will be changed.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Do you think it should not be changed?

Philippe Humbert: It should not be changed. Because it is a law that provides for some basic freedom of conscience, freedom of religions, freedom of performing your religion, freedom of not to tell some people to do something. So it’s very basic. In a way it’s very simple. In principle it’s very simple. Of course, sometimes the implementation can be a bit complicated but I think it should not be changed and there is no real attempt to change the law, except some people asking for that.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: But even when you say that, one also sees that the far right in France is growing in strength from election to election and they’re getting more and more seats in Parliament, they are having a higher share of votes. So ultimately I think, perhaps, France is also heading towards an India-kind of situation.

Philippe Humbert: Okay well, it’s true that the far right is increasing. There are currently about 80 to 90 MPs. Which is a big number, the biggest ever and there is a trend but we will see in the future. It is very difficult to say that in some years things will be as some people would like it to be. just imagine the situation four years ago. It was before COVID, before the Ukrainian war, and see how the world was different now. So, four years ahead, well, see. But we have to fight.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: I think across Europe migration is a major issue. And if you look at France’s history, France was a country which promoted migration especially from African countries like Tunisia. But I think there is a public sentiment against it growing in France as well. How do you account for something like that?

Philippe Humbert: Yes it is true that there is migration pressure coming from the South. Mainly coming from African countries and also from countries which are involved in wars you know. Afghanistan, Syria and now Ukrainians, but it’s a very different context. It is true there is a kind of pressure. But we’ll have to build up a regime where we can welcome those people who are willing to settle down and to be integrated in and that to be done. But there is a quantum which is possible to accommodate and sometimes, on some occasion there are some situations which are difficult to tackle.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Anyway, let us come back to India. Because we have been talking about France more than India. I remember in some of your writings, when you said that the India Story, which you have been following since the middle 1980s, is about economic growth. That is something which you have consistently held. What is the kind of economic growth situation that you see in India at this point of time?

Philippe Humbert: Well I think the economic growth in India for this current year is supposed to be around six percent, which is a relatively high number compared to the world. In many countries it is much less, even in China. Even so, this is a nominal number of growth. There are strong points in the Indian economy. I would say that all those IT companies like Infosys, Wipro, all the services or those related to renewable energy are doing quite well. Especially Solar energy, which was my field, saw great development in India over the last few years. Other areas that are going very well are, I think, Aeronautics. Civil aviation is also booming. And of course, the telecommunication work has totally changed. The technology is totally new now and you know that. And India is performing well in this field. But also, what is not new is that some basic problems in India are not served right. First, mass education. I think India should have a mass education project, which has been done in China. And if China is at such a high level that’s because they have performed much more in education and social amenities. I think in India you have a very high level of higher institutions, such the famous IITs and many private universities are doing exceptionally well. But still mass education is not growing at a desired rate.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Indeed, there has to be some focus on mass education. But in terms of primary and secondary education, there are States like Kerala which have done very well.

Philippe Humbert: Yeah, yes. It demonstrates that it is possible. It is just a matter of will. In India you have a Centre and you have the States. Kerala is doing well. Tamil Nadu is doing pretty well also. Why are other states not doing as well? So it’s a matter of concern. The possibilities are not used by the local authorities of those States which are not dedicated enough in some cases.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Right. You talked about the growth in the aviation industry. France and India have an aviation connection, the Rafaele Deal. How do you look at that connection?

Philippe Humbert: But it’s not new. It’s not new at all. You must remember that Dassault aeroplanes have been introduced in India, in the 1950s. And many of the Pilots have been trained on planes coming from Dassault at that time. So it is a very old story. The relationship in aviation. Then it came to a new kind of aeroplane. The last one is Rafael. So I know India has selected Rafael but it is true also for civil aviation. And very recently Air India has ordered, the biggest order, in the world. Five hundred aeroplanes. Coming from about 50% Airbus and 50% Boeing. It shows that Civil aviation is booming in India. A lot of airports are being expanded.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Apart from aviation the other area that you know India and France had a huge collaboration was on solar energy. What is the future of that now?

Philippe Humbert: Well I am extremely dedicated to the solar industry because I’ve been in India, like five, six years working in India itself, expanding solar plants with a French company which is a pioneer in industry. It was in 2015 and you remember the COP15 in Paris. It was where the solar alliance, the International Solar Alliance, was created with the French government and your government and now implemented in Delhi. So I am a strong believer of solar energy and generally renewable energy with wind and other sources.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: But is India doing well in the renewable energy section?

Philippe Humbert: I think India is going quite well for renewable energy. To see the numbers of gigawatts which are installed at capacity is huge. So for India, it is a good move. I must say that it’s a good example of what has to be done in many countries. Solar energy and wind energy.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: India has now got the chairmanship of the G20 now. How do you think it is going to impact India’s global standing as well as especially its relationship with countries like France?

Philippe Humbert: Yes, this is new. I think India is more assertive in world affairs. For a long time India was a bit idle, very shy. Not visible on the planet despite its traditions. Now I think things are different. India is much more assertive because of its weight. Maybe as number five in economic power. So you can’t hide yourself in the planet you have to fare well. G20 too is a good opportunity for that. Although, with the Ukrainian War and the rift between the so-called West and Russia-China block is making things quite difficult for India monitoring the G20. It was seen at the last meeting of the finance ministers here in Delhi. They could not sign an agreement. So the Ukrainian war makes things difficult for India to monitor the G20. I think the September meeting will be difficult also. Maybe the same will happen.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Apart from the differences in terms of the Russia-Ukraine war, the other thing that was flagged was the human rights situation in this country. And I think, you know, the Indian foreign minister kind of asserted that you cannot have a universal standard for engaging in terms of human rights. Each country has got to have its own parameters. Thinking about this point, I remember how you have asserted in the past as to how Rajiv Gandhi’s political perspectives were essentially guided by democratic values.But now you have a situation where his son and the former Congress Party president Rahul Gandhi has been divested of his parliamentary membership. So how do you look at this comparison?

Philippe Humbert: Well I think this is happening also in India but also in many places. You can see that in the world now how things are done in a very pragmatic way. Just imagine this new alliance in the Middle East. Between countries like Israel and its neighbours. For example, the famous Abraham’s agreement. More and more nations are doing things in a very pragmatic way. In a way it is good but in another way it goes against the concept of universal human of Rights.

Venkitesh Ramakrishanan: Thank you, Philip Humbert for your perspectives. Despite your long tradition as a secularist, and as long a tradition as a socialist, somebody who believes in social democracy, I can see that, at the end of it all, what you are seeing globally is not a very bright picture. But almost a bleak one but then let’s hope for better times and I wish you have a very good time in India as the kind of times that you used to have earlier. And we will meet in the future as well on The AIDEM Interactions. Thank you.